[CivicAccess-discuss] NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block

Sun Jan 9 20:11:26 EST 2011

Ok, well I am not sure if anyone wants to have a serious discussion. My point was simply that I am not sure we should collect the racial information of people as it might lead to certain perceptions and policies that are potentially very bad for society. I am curious to know what this mailing list thinks of the issue. 

But to frame the concern more widely, Besides privacy issues, what information should the government NOT collect and/or Not distribute? 

For example, should we create a map showing sexual orientation (homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, ...) of people - even if it is per 500 individuals? Same question for religious beliefs? 

Of course, in a perfectly non-racist, non-bigotted, non-sectarian society; there would be no need to be concerned with having this information, but alas, we have not evolved that far yet. 

Again, I am undecided on the issue - but I am keen to know what people think.

JB
jonathanbrun.com

On 2011-01-09, at 6:57 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:

> Hey Jonathan;
> 
> Just to be sure I understand what you are suggesting:
> 
> a) You would like citizens to have access to this map:
> 
> http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/usstates/usashape.htm
> 
> b) and only allow government officials to have this one?
> 
> http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer
> 
> Cheers
> t
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Jonathan Brun <jbrun at jonathanbrun.com> wrote:
>> No racial data there (as far as I can see) - though there is immigration
>> stuff. Otherwise, cool stuff though.
>> JB
>> jonathanbrun.com
>> On 2011-01-09, at 11:47 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>> 
>> http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/peopleandsociety/#edc
>> 
>> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Brun <jbrun at jonathanbrun.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> Sorry for chiming in late, I only recently saw the map in question. I am
>>> curious to know what you think of making this data available. My first
>>> question, is why don't we collect this data in Canada?
>>> Secondly, though I am a proponent of more information allows us to make
>>> better decisions, sometimes more information can hurt us or actually hurt a
>>> system. For example, to take a banal example, Facebook actively prohibits
>>> you from knowing who is looking at your profile. My guess is that they feel
>>> that should you have this information, people's relationships to each other
>>> would be negatively impacted - I tend to agree.
>>> My question is, does making racial make-up publicly available (which is
>>> different from collecting it) help citizens. Or does, it further promote
>>> ghettoization of races into different neighbourhoods? I am not sure. Of
>>> course, immigrants naturally gravitate to specific neighbourhoods where they
>>> might have family and friends, but by making this information even more
>>> available, are we not encouraging this behaviour even more?
>>> And, should we be making decisions based on race? Arguably, having this
>>> information allows the US to say "Blacks have less access to high quality
>>> schools" and therefore put in place programs, but should the question not be
>>> "People of a certain income distribution have less access to high quality
>>> schools". What value is there in differentiating people by race. There are
>>> of course negatives (big ones).
>>> While I realize that the data in the US is per 500 people, it still seems
>>> dangerous. Clearly identifying people or groups by race (or religion) can
>>> lead to very bad things. Whether it is Hutu/Tutsis or Arab/Jewish or any
>>> other government run categorization of people based on race or religion,
>>> there are downsides that potentially outweigh any upsides.
>>> All in all, I think this is an interesting case of open-data and its
>>> merits. Should we collect this data? If so, should it be made public?
>>> Just my two cents. Have a great sunday!
>>> JB
>>> jonathanbrun.com
>>> On 2010-12-15, at 10:54 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>>> 
>>> really I am literate folks but sometimes I wonder! Shesh!
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <tlauriau at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Heather;
>>>> 
>>>> The information is incredibly empowering to marginalized & segregated
>>>> groups.  Ideally, we would all be treated equal, this information combined
>>>> with other variables tells us and shows us we are not.
>>>> 
>>>> In this map I see density, diversity, difference, sparseness, urban,
>>>> rural, hubs and spokes, corridors and clusters, where different people live
>>>> and don't, I see raiNbows and i see distinct lines.  This is the US Mosaic.
>>>> 
>>>> Unfortunately, we cannot wipe this map clean of its underlying truths and
>>>> a blank map or empty sheet brings no justice in this case.
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Heather Morrison <hgmorris at sfu.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 15-Dec-10, at 6:42 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is normal.  We have made maps like this for centuries
>>>>> 
>>>>> We have made war, and practiced racism, for centuries and more. Are
>>>>> these normal too?
>>>>> 
>>>>>> as these
>>>>>> inform you about the nature of neighbourhoods.  If you notice each dot
>>>>>> represents 500 people so not an individual household.  This type of
>>>>>> information is critically important as it tells you something about
>>>>>> segregated cities, it tells you something about economics and if you
>>>>>> combine that information with education, schools, proximity to transit
>>>>>> it tells you about who does and does not have access to resources.
>>>>>> People use this type of information for organizing and for lobbying
>>>>>> for resources.
>>>>> 
>>>>> No doubt this information is useful - but to whom, and for what
>>>>> purposes? We can all see progressive reasons for using this information (I
>>>>> do) - but are all of us progressive? I don't find it hard at all to imagine
>>>>> this information used to facilitate discrimination. I am sure that this
>>>>> information is useful for lobbying for resources - but who has money to hire
>>>>> lobbyists?
>>>>> 
>>>>> best,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Heather
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Heather Morrison <hgmorris at sfu.ca>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The maps are indeed pretty. However, I am wondering about the
>>>>>>> implications
>>>>>>> of identifying neighbourhoods based on ethnic/racial population
>>>>>>> (white/black/hispanic neighbourhoods).
>>>>>>> thoughts?
>>>>>>> Heather Morrison
>>>>>>> On 15-Dec-10, at 1:18 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just imagine if our census data, well, first we had to imagine we had
>>>>>>> a census, and second if we had one and if past ones were actually
>>>>>>> available to us at no cost, just imagine what we could also do in
>>>>>>> Canada in terms of visualizing patterns across the nation!
>>>>>>> fyi - the Canadian census does not ask questions about cultural groups
>>>>>>> anymore so we will not be able to create such a map for 2011 even if
>>>>>>> the data were free.
>>>>>>> This NYTimes visualization is just beautiful.
>>>>>>> Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
>>>>>>> http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Tracey P. Lauriault
>>>>>>> 613-234-2805
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss at civicaccess.ca
>>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss at civicaccess.ca
>>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Tracey P. Lauriault
>>>>>> 613-234-2805
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss at civicaccess.ca
>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss at civicaccess.ca
>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Tracey P. Lauriault
>>>> 613-234-2805
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Tracey P. Lauriault
>>> 613-234-2805
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> CivicAccess-discuss at civicaccess.ca
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> CivicAccess-discuss at civicaccess.ca
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Tracey P. Lauriault
>> 613-234-2805
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> CivicAccess-discuss at civicaccess.ca
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> CivicAccess-discuss at civicaccess.ca
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tracey P. Lauriault
> 613-234-2805
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> CivicAccess-discuss at civicaccess.ca
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pwd.ca/pipermail/civicaccess-discuss/attachments/20110109/40cb4e15/attachment-0001.html>